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The WD should have stratigic Minion Skills.
ala-
"Regoup"- All Minions come back by your side.
"Hold Line"- Which will be the replacement of the Zombie Wall Skill.
"Attack specific target"- Obviously very much needed.
"Defend"- Minions circle the WD with the main purpose of protectin him.
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I can't stop from thinking this can be the greatest idea D3 can ever have.
It's VERY original, new and exciting and will shut up everyone who says the WD is a Necro 2.0 -since this is a whole different gameplay.
The only problem I see with this mechanic is the it will require more hotbar spaces but I'm sure that minor and Blizz could solve this is a sec.
What do you think?
Would you like this kind of mechanic?
No, i do not want to feel as i am playing RTS i will have Starcraft 2 for that. I loved how my minions act in Diablo 2, moving here and there, checking all flanks on their own. I hate wow system where you have full control on your minion instead of improve ai, my minion in wow act so mindless...
Instead of Starcraft feel i want Majesty feel, where you recruit heroes that are doing things on their own, you cannot control them.
Try majesty demo here to understand : http://www.cyberlore.com/majesty/
Could you control your minions on last Blizzcon? I hope not.|||Quote:
Heads up, a summoner controls an army.. Albeit, a small one. Jay Wilson, also commented about making D3 more strategy based than the previous titles. Lastly, if I wanted to play SC or WC3, I wouldn't have bothered posting my thoughts here.
Heads up to you, the Necro was an excellent summoner character and guess what, he never DIRECTLY controlled his minions, i repeat .. this is no strategy game .. you should only control one character not an army (even a small one).
Strategy could come from other things (mostly skill usage).. like how you strategically used Corpse explosion to kill your enemies and create more minions at the same time ... not minions control.
Not to mention pre-battle preparations in D3 which will include skills choices, item choices, rune skill choices .. add minion AI/behavior choices to it and it will offer lots of strategy/depth that fits with a fast paced ARPG game not a strategy one.
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No, i do not want to feel as i am playing RTS i will have Starcraft 2 for that. I loved how my minions act in Diablo 2, moving here and there, checking all flanks on their own. I hate wow system where you have full control on your minion instead of improve ai, my minion in wow act so mindless...
Exactly, improving the AI is one essential way to make minions more efficient.
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But pre-battle preparations could also make minions more fun to have around and ties with the AI improvement nicely, like being able to set behaviors before you enter a battle (Like in Titan Quest:Immortal Throne).
Actually most of the preparation in Diablo games are pre-battle (skill/stat choices, item choices, merc choice, .. etc etc) meaning you rarely switch items mid-battle, change your merc or assign skill/stat points while fighting .. you prepare all that before you enter the battlefield .. the minions AI should be exactly the same .. you summon them and select the behavior for each one before you move on to fight your enemies, and once in battle their AI will insure they follow your chosen behavior strictly (Aggressive, Neutral, Defensive)
Aggressive being --> All out Attack, Hunt all enemies in sight and follow them straying away if needed.
Neutral being --> Attack enemies in mid proximity but don't stray too much far away.
Defensive being --> Defend me, Attack enemies that attack me.
This way we can use interesting tactics without turning Diablo into a StarCraft or WC3 affair .. Diablo has always been mostly about pre-battle planning and it should stay that way specially for minions.
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If Blizz did their homework and played TQ and TQ:Immortal Throne while taking notes they would see how effective setting minions AI is in TQ:Immortal Throne and they should include it in D3 in some way (maybe for mercs instead of minions, but it will just be silly if they don't consider it in any way)|||K_W, the vibe I'm getting from you is very "D3=D2.5".
This is not true. It's a whole new game. You can say the Monks' Combos don't fit Diablo 2's game style (and you'd be correct), but they are still here.
And so can this Minions Control can be.
I don't see it as "over stragety" at all- Like the Combos, new players ithout it, but for best results you have to master this mechanic.
P.S-
Can someone maybe post this suggestion on the b.net forums? Bashiok has been quite generous with his comment lately, so we might get a response.|||Quote:
K_W, the vibe I'm getting from you is very "D3=D2.5".
There is nothing D2 about it, D2 never allowed you to set any AI or configure your minions behavior .. that's more than enough advancement, go play Titan Quest:Immortal Throne and see how it works perfectly fine and adds a layer of tactics and strategy without interrupting the action one bit.
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This is not true. It's a whole new game. You can say the Monks' Combos don't fit Diablo 2's game style (and you'd be correct), but they are still here.
The Monk combos fit perfectly with the pace of combat in D3, they are fast paced and keep the action flowing and uninterrupted, they don't require too much fiddling around with multiple functions, or control multiple characters ... on the other hands giving the player control over half a dozen creatures manually is cumbersome and unnecessary and can be an excuse to ignore improving the AI ... we might find the developers saying "you can control your minions directly, why do you want AI to be improved over D2 !!!".
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And so can this Minions Control can be.
I don't see it as "over stragety" at all- Like the Combos, new players ithout it, but for best results you have to master this mechanic.
Again, modifying AI behaviors gives many and more than enough options and is much more streamlined and goes with the "easy to learn, hard to master" way of Diablo design team, requiring you to directly control half-a-dozen expandable minions directly to make them efficient is not needed and diminishes the focus on your main character ... which also goes against the idea of making them epic and the center of you playing experience . you should only be able to directly control one and only one character .. any more directly controlled characters dilutes the experience badly.
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And again most of your character's efficiency comes from pre-fight preparations .. the AI of the minions won't be an exception it will just simply follow the same rule applied to all other systems in the game ... it is more Diablo than allowing you to control half-a-dozen guys like some WC3 clone.|||I have to say I disagree with basically everything you say.
1. Commands will be applied to all minons, not each individualy, so controlling "half a dozen creatures" is exactly like controlling one.
2. This makes Minions Control far from "fiddling around with multiple functions".
3. I don't see how this is an excuse not to develop AI. AI will be improved for Merc anyway, won't it?
4. I actually think controlling minions makes your WD far more epic than to only summon them. Ask any Fishymancer- Controlling somebody is cool. This sounds too much of an opinion to be a valid argument.
5. I must say I think the "pre-set" behavior is far more slow-pace than this system. It will ultimatly come down to either change setting before every battle thus slowing down the game or setting it only once for the "best" option, which isn't "easy to learn, hard to master" but actually "ALT+TAB and go check diii.net for best way". However, this is not a bad idea. It is your thoughts I disagree with.
(I hate multiple quotes, so excuse me for not using it)|||Quote:
There is nothing D2 about it, D2 never allowed you to set any AI or configure your minions behavior .. that's more than enough advancement, go play Titan Quest:Immortal Throne and see how it works perfectly fine and adds a layer of tactics and strategy without interrupting the action one bit.
I didn't see any layer of tactics or strategy in TQ only annoyance as every time i entered or summoned new minion i had to put it into aggressive mode.
Of course in WoW is different story because of complicated boss encounters and agrro control but it was in cost of your minion behavior, uniquess etc.
I want my minion act differently depend what they are, so i do not want any behavior control and i do not want attack, defend or any other options.
Because not only everything this is killing atmosphere (one of most important thing in games for me) but it is reduce difficulty.
I just want hell-a-lot improve AI and i know they are capable to do it.
Blizzard North already killed a lot of challage when in D2 Sorceress could not die from his own spells like in first, making use of powerful magic somehow mindless spamfest.|||Quote:
I didn't see any layer of tactics or strategy in TQ only annoyance as every time i entered or summoned new minion i had to put it into aggressive mode.
Of course in WoW is different story because of complicated boss encounters and agrro control but it was in cost of your minion behavior, uniquess etc.
I want my minion act differently depend what they are, so i do not want any behavior control and i do not want attack, defend or any other options.
Because not only everything this is killing atmosphere (one of most important thing in games for me) but it is reduce difficulty.
I just want hell-a-lot improve AI and i know they are capable to do it.
Blizzard North already killed a lot of challage when in D2 Sorceress could not die from his own spells like in first, making use of powerful magic somehow mindless spamfest.
No one would force you to use the commands if there was an option for some of them.|||Quote:
I didn't see any layer of tactics or strategy in TQ only annoyance as every time i entered or summoned new minion i had to put it into aggressive mode.
Of course in WoW is different story because of complicated boss encounters and agrro control but it was in cost of your minion behavior, uniquess etc.
Uniqueness has nothing to do with it, the minions are unique because of their stats, abilities and looks.
Second .. you never explained why you had to put Every minion on aggressive in TQ .. fact is .. you don't have to, every minion type (in case you had two masteries with minions) had his uses and differernt benefits ... you can keep some close by (by making them defensive) to deal with fast-moving melee enemies that can swarm you .... and also send some off (by making them aggressive) to hunt down ranged attackers (i specially let wolves do that becasue of their speed and numbers).
Think if you have Nature Mastery and Earth Mastery you would keep the Fire Golem guy close by to help take down melee attackers and send the wolves off to nail enemy ranged attackers and mages ... they system works just excellently with builds like that .. another person who only has nature mastery might want to keep his wolves in Neutral state so they don't stray far off screen .. etc etc.
And after all you really don't have to keep changing the behavior every five seconds .. it is similar to dealing with items ... you only need to change them once every while.
Also you simply just didn't use the system effectively but that's not in any way an argument against it or a reason why it shouldn't be used.
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I want my minion act differently depend what they are, so i do not want any behavior control and i do not want attack, defend or any other options.
Because not only everything this is killing atmosphere (one of most important thing in games for me) but it is reduce difficulty.
I just want hell-a-lot improve AI and i know they are capable to do it.
And if they improve AI (which will probably happen) how does that in any way require any more skill from the player to use .. it obviously removes difficulty and makes things way easier .. moreover .. i don't see how is this in any way an argument against giving players the option to modify minions behavior.
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Blizzard North already killed a lot of challage when in D2 Sorceress could not die from his own spells like in first, making use of powerful magic somehow mindless spamfest.
And what does that have to do with minions AI behavior or summoners !!?|||K_W you've commented everyone but me? Me sad.|||Quote:
K_W you've commented everyone but me? Me sad. K_W you've commented everyone but me? Me sad.
Alright there you go, actually i felt we reached an unwritten agreement not to agree on anything so i thought i might leave it at that .. but if you demand a reply i won't let you down.
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1. Commands will be applied to all minons, not each individualy, so controlling "half a dozen creatures" is exactly like controlling one.
I don't see any point in commanding all minions to do something ... each one of them might be better at a different thing ... ordering all you minions (including Gargantuan, Fetishes and Zombie Dogs) to do the same thing isn't the best way to control them by far.
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2. This makes Minions Control far from "fiddling around with multiple functions".
Simplifying it this much as you suggest above makes implementing it not worth it .. as for control .. besides the suggestion above some of the other suggestions made for directly controlling all minions does involve fiddling with extra hot-keys and multiple functions.
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3. I don't see how this is an excuse not to develop AI. AI will be improved for Merc anyway, won't it?
It can be used an an excuse to cut down the time on the minion AI improvement knowing if players will control their pets directly AI isn't factored that much.
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4. I actually think controlling minions makes your WD far more epic than to only summon them. Ask any Fishymancer- Controlling somebody is cool. This sounds too much of an opinion to be a valid argument.
Never heard of being able to issue direct orders to any minions in D2 ... fishymancers or others.
And i don't see how ignoring your main character mid-combat to issue some order to some worthless zombie dogs makes your character any more epic .. the Devs stated over and over they want to make the characters the center of all the action going on .. letting you directly control minions goes against that.
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5. I must say I think the "pre-set" behavior is far more slow-pace than this system. It will ultimatly come down to either change setting before every battle thus slowing down the game or setting it only once for the "best" option, which isn't "easy to learn, hard to master" but actually "ALT+TAB and go check diii.net for best way". However, this is not a bad idea. It is your thoughts I disagree with.
It is hard to change your minion AI during a fight indeed, but that doesn't mean there will only be one best way to do it, it all depends on your build and on the minions you chose for it .. not to mention what skill runes you equipped them with .. and your weapon of choice .. all those factors will affect which minions you keep by your side and which to send out (and all are similar to the AI system in that they are all pre-set before battle .. not a excuse to call them bad or extremely slow paced)
Learning the effects of each and everyone of those factors on each differernt AI choice does require lots of experimentation and testing ... yes guides will help .. but it's like using guides to make builds .. not all people will use them
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(I hate multiple quotes, so excuse me for not using it)
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