Uniqueness has nothing to do with it, the minions are unique because of their stats, abilities and looks.
Looks like you are not true summoner fan, all pleasure is from watching your minions that you cannot control, how they act, what they do it give completely different layer of fun and challage. If you never played majesty you will probably do not understand.
Adding any control over it will kill it.
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Second .. you never explained why you had to put Every minion on aggressive in TQ .. fact is .. you don't have to, every minion type (in case you had two masteries with minions) had his uses and differernt benefits ... you can keep some close by (by making them defensive) to deal with fast-moving melee enemies that can swarm you .... and also send some off (by making them aggressive) to hunt down ranged attackers (i specially let wolves do that becasue of their speed and numbers).
Think if you have Nature Mastery and Earth Mastery you would keep the Fire Golem guy close by to help take down melee attackers and send the wolves off to nail enemy ranged attackers and mages ... they system works just excellently with builds like that .. another person who only has nature mastery might want to keep his wolves in Neutral state so they don't stray far off screen .. etc etc.
I played pure summoner (warfare + nature as he is the best for this) and question is how far you went into game with your summoner? You would know how AI is broken, if you want your minions kill for you need put them on aggressive other way you will see very fast where problem is.
Situation you describe above is a) looking good on paper but not in TQ mostly because of AI, of course that is something you can repair with just good ai and will be validate but that leads to point b) making game too much like RTS.
With good aI your monsters should know what to do without you controlling them.
Remember we talk about Diablo, it is action games if my summons die i will summon new or retreat, regroup forces and try again. Battles will be fast and deadly, you will be enough busy with casting buffs, debuffs and other spells while watching battlefield with one leg in "run away" mode.
In game like Overlord (great game btw) limited control is good thing but in Diablo is unneeded and unwanted for the reasons i stated many times already.
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And after all you really don't have to keep changing the behavior every five seconds .. it is similar to dealing with items ... you only need to change them once every while.
Minions die, wolves in TQ are good example and Dryad even better. Even worst is too change behavior in the middle of fight.
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Also you simply just didn't use the system effectively but that's not in any way an argument against it or a reason why it shouldn't be used.
Lol
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And if they improve AI (which will probably happen) how does that in any way require any more skill from the player to use .. it obviously removes difficulty and makes things way easier .. moreover .. i don't see how is this in any way an argument against giving players the option to modify minions behavior.
Try Majesty really, you will learn something about indirect control and how difficult it can be.
If i cannot control something i need to take into consideration their behavior and other things before i will enter or while fighting and use spells to help my army prevail.
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And what does that have to do with minions AI behavior or summoners!!?
Reducing other challenges, everything what left is "this boss has x hp and hit for x damage i need leat tier x gear to beat him for this i will need x days of farming".
Diablo 2 already limit challenges you had take into consideration during your adventure but damn, WoW killed them all already and what left is this example above.|||Quote:
Adding any control over it will kill it.
Not necessarily, that's more of a perosnal preference, besides .. if the game sets your minions on some AUTO AI status once you summon them you won't be obliged to change anything or have to manually set them to aggressive ... others would like to do it though .. which will not affect you in any way.
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I played pure summoner (warfare + nature as he is the best for this) and question is how far you went into game with your summoner? You would know how AI is broken, if you want your minions kill for you need put them on aggressive other way you will see very fast where problem is.
You played pure summoner, others will play different hybrids, for example if i played a Earth+Nature summoner i would want to keep the Fire Golem close by to defend me against fast melee enemies that might swarm me (even better since Golem has provoke) ... i don't find any need in this situation to set him on Aggressive ... i will leave assault to the fast moving wolves and the ranged Nature Nymph.
On the other hand if you use a hunter/summoner build only has Earth for summoning and ranged attacks you will need to set the Golem on Aggressive since he will be your only tank.
Point is .. in every different build and with every different setup you will need to be able to tweak your units AI to fit your build and preferences .. those who don't need to can set the AI to default.
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With good aI your monsters should know what to do without you controlling them.
Not true, either what they will do will be very simple and limited (just run and attack the first thing on sight) or they will have to have some telepathy to understand what you want them to do without you saying anything.
Seeing from the examples above there is no way whatsoever for the fire Golem to be able to realize when you need him beside you to defend your from melee attackers (in case of Earth+Nature for example) or when you want him to go all out on enemies (in case you only have Golem as your only summon and tank)
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Remember we talk about Diablo, it is action games if my summons die i will summon new or retreat, regroup forces and try again. Battles will be fast and deadly, you will be enough busy with casting buffs, debuffs and other spells while watching battlefield with one leg in "run away" mode.
You assume they will regroup, but there is no guarantee they will do, you will say that they will follow you by AI, but what if i want them to stand there to hold off the enemy off instead of following me and letting the enemy get close (becasue they had to stop attacking it to follow me .. dumb pets
!!!).But if you set one wolf on offense and the other on defense one of them will hold the enemies off and the other will follow you to protect you .. no AI will be able to that on its own.
In every situation and with every different build you will need your pets to react differently (even in the same situation) .. and that's impossible with pure AI.
You will still have time to cast buffs and debuffs ... it has no effect whatsoever on that .. you don't control your pets directly .. but rather set their AI before you start fighting to fit your needs.
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Minions die, wolves in TQ are good example and Dryad even better. Even worst is too change behavior in the middle of fight.
You don't need to change AI mid-fight if you planned things right from the beginning.
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If i cannot control something i need to take into consideration their behavior and other things before i will enter or while fighting and use spells to help my army prevail.
And who said that is good, we can't control weather, does that make it interesting or useful .. yes we have to take its actions into considerations but it always acts on its own biting us when can't do anything about it ... but if we had control over weather we can do many interesting things and save countless lives .. etc etc.
Having more control is always better and opens up options and choices.
Having too much control would be being able to directly control your minions like an RTS .. which i'm against as well.
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Reducing other challenges, everything what left is "this boss has x hp and hit for x damage i need leat tier x gear to beat him for this i will need x days of farming".
Diablo 2 already limit challenges you had take into consideration during your adventure but damn, WoW killed them all already and what left is this example above.
When was giving you more options limiting for challenges .. i don't find any link between your examples and AI minions control.|||Quote:
Not necessarily, that's more of a perosnal preference, besides .. if the game sets your minions on some AUTO AI status once you summon them you won't be obliged to change anything or have to manually set them to aggressive ... others would like to do it though .. which will not affect you in any way.
Of course in the end it is all about preference.
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You played pure summoner, others will play different hybrids, for example if i played a Earth+Nature summoner i would want to keep the Fire Golem close by to defend me against fast melee enemies that might swarm me (even better since Golem has provoke) ... i don't find any need in this situation to set him on Aggressive ... i will leave assault to the fast moving wolves and the ranged Nature Nymph.
On the other hand if you use a hunter/summoner build only has Earth for summoning and ranged attacks you will need to set the Golem on Aggressive since he will be your only tank.
Look like you do not understand, it was long time since i played TQ, as i remember if you didn't put your minions on aggressive they would do not attack as smooth as you want, problem with reactions time, range, if you send them to attack they would return after killing it but ignore others in fast and deadly game like TQ such ai problems leave your char to death as your minions didn't aggro or dps as they should, other problem in TQ is that player was on top of priorite list if he attack, so casting even debuff like plague lead monsters to completely ignore your forces and focus on you = death.
Golem which you showing as example is unique because of his provoke ability that force monster to attack him but earth tree offer summoner too few to be worth pickup if ai would work correctly there would be no need for taunt spell as your minions should be capable to stop enemies in the track.
Btw. Since when we start talk about hybrids?
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Point is .. in every different build and with every different setup you will need to be able to tweak your units AI to fit your build and preferences .. those who don't need to can set the AI to default.
I never had need for it, do you need it when you played Skellymancer or BeastMaster in Diablo 2? Diablo 3 is not so different plus controlling minions in anyway ruin climat for me for many reason one additional that i didn't stayed already is that instead of controlling only your main hero, focus on him you start leading some group like in Baldurs Gate instead of one your own "avatar" you have them eight it somehow ruin climate for me as i cannot focus on my alter-ego or something it hard to explain me but their are differences between Starcraft and Diablo and it is not base building feature but fact that you can personalize with this one guy you have on screen with name you wished to have.
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Not true, either what they will do will be very simple and limited (just run and attack the first thing on sight) or they will have to have some telepathy to understand what you want them to do without you saying anything.
How they act will depend on them, simple fighter fight, healer heal.
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Seeing from the examples above there is no way whatsoever for the fire Golem to be able to realize when you need him beside you to defend your from melee attackers (in case of Earth+Nature for example) or when you want him to go all out on enemies (in case you only have Golem as your only summon and tank)
He do not need it but it is not something hard to program, it just matter of how much love you want to put in other thing if you are in hot spot just move your *** from there.
I thing you have problem with understand what people like me loved about summoners like skellymancer an why we do not get bored by watching them fight. You want add layer that is unneeded changing action game know as Diablo into tactic game like Dawn of War 2.
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You assume they will regroup, but there is no guarantee they will do, you will say that they will follow you by AI, but what if i want them to stand there to hold off the enemy off instead of following me and letting the enemy get close (becasue they had to stop attacking it to follow me .. dumb pets
!!!).You didn't understand what i wrote. I said that you regroup not your minions means pull back and reinforce your casualties, analyze what went wrong and try (or not) again. How your minions will act in your retreat is depend on ai and game mechanic. In Diablo2 skeletons would fight to the end (like mindless animated creature would do) but when gap between them and you was too big Game teleported automatically them to you.
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But if you set one wolf on offense and the other on defense one of them will hold the enemies off and the other will follow you to protect you .. no AI will be able to that on its own.
In every situation and with every different build you will need your pets to react differently (even in the same situation) .. and that's impossible with pure AI.
Yes, that is why this is making game harder as you do not have control over your minions. Isn't this exciting? Try Majesty.
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You will still have time to cast buffs and debuffs ... it has no effect whatsoever on that .. you don't control your pets directly .. but rather set their AI before you start fighting to fit your needs.
In this situation sooner or later you would start changing behavior of your minions during a fight i can guarantee this to you from my experience from wow and with this amount of minions it would take all your time that you would spend enjoining the show.
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You don't need to change AI mid-fight if you planned things right from the beginning.
If we talk in TQ, wolves on higher difficulties can die in instant and when you resummon them you need change their behavior to aggresive or you loose precious dps, aggro and life.
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And who said that is good, we can't control weather, does that make it interesting or useful .. yes we have to take its actions into considerations but it always acts on its own biting us when can't do anything about it ... but if we had control over weather we can do many interesting things and save countless lives .. etc etc.
Having more control is always better and opens up options and choices.
And that is where we are different because full control is not always good thing in my opinion, but hey some people like game likes lemmings, dungeon keeper or majesty some not.
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Having too much control would be being able to directly control your minions like an RTS .. which i'm against as well.
Well i am against any control over minions in diablo.
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When was giving you more options limiting for challenges .. i don't find any link between your examples and AI minions control.
I do not understood.|||Its extremely easy you know...
3 extra skills.
Offense - Pets/minions/hirelings wander around finding something to attack, but don't go too far. Maybe a screen away tops.
Defense - Pets/minions/hirelings will walk around half a screen away only and wont chase enemies.
Regroup - Pets/minions/hirelings leave everything they are doing and return to the Witch Doctor. (this one brings them all back, they they go back to offense/defense)
make them Default skills everyone has. YES they take up A SKILL SLOT. So what? It will be like Unsummon. You wont cast them constantly in battle. No, you regroup if you plan on running, or to collect your minions. you change between offense/defense depending how you want to play, offense would open the doctor but kill more, whereas defense helps keep the doctor alive longer but kills less.|||I'd say it's a great idea for another character. You're talking about a 'battle commander', but this goes against the philosophy / lore of a voodoo-style WD. Perhaps a golemlord. Will describe in separate thread.|||Quote:
but this goes against the philosophy / lore of a voodoo-style WD. Perhaps a golemlord.
I fail to see how. Elaborate?|||Interesting... but really not needed. I mean, you can always just re-summon the dog if you need to position him - much more effective, with the small cost of mana.
How often would you seriously use these anyways?
(Keep in mind - while these "commands" work great in a WoW-like game, I have a hard time thinking it would work well in a Diablo-like game... Diablo is very fast paced... by the time it took to use these commands, I could've just resummoned the mongrel in whatever place I needed and his AI would do the rest.)
It would definitely have its uses, but I believe they would be very situational, and if it requires extending d3's release date even a day I'd say its not worth it
EDIT: AND yes it could work GREAT for another type of character, who focused more on using the summons tactically. If this type of character is included in d3 (even if in a later expansion), it would be nice to see the Witch Doctor able to use this ability as well
.. again not warranting inclusion solely for the WD tho.|||Quote:Interesting... but really not needed. I mean, you can always just re-summon the dog if you need to position him - much more effective, with the small cost of mana.
How often would you seriously use these anyways?
(Keep in mind - while these "commands" work great in a WoW-like game, I have a hard time thinking it would work well in a Diablo-like game... Diablo is very fast paced... by the time it took to use these commands, I could've just resummoned the mongrel in whatever place I needed and his AI would do the rest.)
It would definitely have its uses, but I believe they would be very situational, and if it requires extending d3's release date even a day I'd say its not worth it
EDIT: AND yes it could work GREAT for another type of character, who focused more on using the summons tactically. If this type of character is included in d3 (even if in a later expansion), it would be nice to see the Witch Doctor able to use this ability as well
.. again not warranting inclusion solely for the WD tho.1. This is far from "slow pace" mechanic. You click, it happens. You can't say this is slower than, say, Spectral Blade.
2. I actually see a lot of uses for it. "Charge" for taking down Archers of Buffers monsters, "Regroup" if you' on low health etc.
Not to mention this is create different chars according to gameplay and Skills choices.
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