While I understand that there's already a thread involving the hatred felt towards the Witch Doctor, I just wanted to take a moment to fully exhaust my concerns in a rational manner.
1. From a flavor standpoint the Witch Doctor reminds me of the areas of Diablo 2 that I disliked the most. Act three was easily the location that they could have ripped out of Diablo 2 and I would have thanked them for it. The mobs were little and annoying, the zones were huge and maze like, and the waypoints were difficult to find. This all combined to make an experience that I can only define as "Frustrating." Having a class that comes directly out of this area immediately raises my hackles and prepares me for something that's going to be conceptually interesting but ultimately frustrating, which is sort of the theme I'm going with.
2. The ability to have pets is neat. The ability to curse pets to do additional effects is neat. The ability to explode pets is neat. In theory. This will be the result of a player wanting to maximize his pets in combat. Summon Summon Summon, Curse Curse Curse, Explode Explode Explode, Repeat Ad Nauseum. Combine this with the fact that they've already stated that they don't want pets to be doing the majority of damage in combat, and you have a pet system which is simply frustrating to play with, although conceptually interesting.
3. FireBomb. This skill is actually kind of neat. My skeptisism goes off when I hear that this is the skill that defines the class. (As stated by the Diablo 3 Development Team.) The Barbarian has Seismic Slam, and the Wizard has Magic Missle, and those make perfect sense and define the class. When I hear "Magic Missle" I think, "Wizard or Sorcerer". When I hear "Seismic Slam" I think "Big Crazy Smashing Guy." When I hear "FireBomb" I do NOT think "Crazy Voodoo Witch Doctor." I think "Demolitionist" or "Alchemist". My mind does not immediately go to a character who is summoning pets and zombie walls, and other such voodoo like things.
I'm also highly skeptical of a level 18 diablo 2 sorceress skill, FireBall, being the defining skill of an entire class.
4. Horrify. This is one of those abilities that solo players will most likely use. It's one of those things that helps you get out of a sticky spot. HOWEVER, this is one of those abilities that drives people CRAZY in multiplay, ESPECIALLY the melee people. There's nothing worse than charging into melee combat just to have everything you're expecting to kill suddenly run away. Suddenly all the amassed mobs become little pissant targets you have to waste time running around picking off one by one.
Again, I'm highly skeptical of a level ONE barbarian skill that no one really used being one of the witch doctor skills.
5. Locust Swarm. Again, another single player ability that will see no use whatsoever in multiplay. I remember when I decided to build a necromancer in diablo 2 specifically with the idea of poison nova in mind. The concept to me was tight. Use my pets to hold off advancing attackers, poison nova them and wait. The problem is that while I was waiting for things to die, other players were just killing things. The damage I was doing wasn't exceptional enough to warrent the build and the necromancer was abandoned.
This is one of those things that IS fixable. Just increase the damage to stay on par with everyone else. But I AM skeptical of a level 30 necromancer skill that's worse being a part of the witch doctor.
6. Mass Confusion. Don't get me wrong. I love this ability in theory. The actual play of it though is annoying ultimately, and will see very little use in multiplay. The problem with it is that you basically double the time that players have to spend on a group of mobs. The first attack comes against the mobs who don't convert to your side, the second attack comes against the mobs who DID convert to your side, but then attack you when the spell wears off. Now, if they make it so that you can attack BOTH types of enemies, I immediately question the validity of the skill, because a barbarian or wizard will just lay waste to the entire group anyway.
It's a skill that just slows the game down for no REAL benefits, and it's sort of a throw back to a diablo 2 level 24 paladin skill, Conversion.
7. Wall of Zombies. This ability is actually full of flavor, but on a practical level is basically the Iron Maiden/Bone Wall combo from Diablo 2, in that it is a wall that deals damage to melee mobs. My problem with this is the same as the problem with Mass Confuse. It's just a slow way to deal damage when you have classes like the barbarian and the wizard charging forward into combat.
8. Soul Harvest. FINALLY an ability that isn't a TOTAL ripoff of an under used diablo 2 skill. While the comparisons to any type of nova are fair enough, allowing the nova to suck mana out of the people the witch doctor kills with it is pretty nice. Overall I'd say that this is probably the one ability that doesn't make me scratch my head and raise too many questions. My only skeptism is that it's an ability that seems to rely heavily on getting an opponent to low health FIRST and then using it, but that's an issue of timing more then anything. Ultimatly it'll be a skill that'll be nice to HAVE, but it'll hardly be the game winning device.
Conclusion.
I suppose through writing this I've convinced myself of one thing; The Witch Doctor is a conglomeration of totally under used, underpowered, and unwanted abilities from other games. While every other class has something new and facinating, the Witch Doctor is basically a class that is a bag of gimmicks, holding no actual substance. When I look at him I feel underwhelmed by his abilities, because I've SEEN all of his abilities before. Almost all of them are a take on a diablo 2 skill, and most of THOSE are skills that people hated in the first place.
I can only see the witch doctor being the class that will be rife with experimentation and interest for those who are interested in exploring kooky and weird builds, but from an actual gameplay angle, I just picture him slowing gameplay down and forcing other players to accommodate his existence. While Barbarians and Wizards are charging headlong into combat, this guy is trailing behind doing all kinds of nifty parlour tricks, but never actually adding anything meaningful to combat, and when he does it usually ends up frustrating the actual damage dealers.
The Witch Doctor is literally the younger runtish cousin that you let play baseball with you and your friends because your mom told you to. You feel obligated to let him hang out with you, hell, you might even be happy to have him along because he's a funny guy who does weird things, but when it comes time to step up to the plate and swing at the ball, you'd rather have a dude who can hit the ball.|||I wish I could give credit to whoever made this quote, but I can't remember, anyway here goes nothing:
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So what's it like in the future?
I can see where some of your skepticism comes from, but when you say things like,
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you have a pet system which is simply frustrating to play with
and
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another single player ability that will see no use whatsoever in multiplay
I have to think, 'Gee, this guy has a lot of experience playing Diablo 3'. You can guess what most people will say next.
Anyhoo, the real hole in your version of 'I hate the Witch Doctor' and most people's versions, is that we have a whopping 11 known Doctor skills. If you can tell me what the other skills are and tell me how you've played them, and why they're bad, maybe I'll agree with you. But right now, all you can say is, 'I dislike the Witch Doctor because IMO he's a big goofy dumbhead' or something along those lines.|||Quote:
I can see where some of your skepticism comes from, but when you say things like, and I have to think, 'Gee, this guy has a lot of experience playing Diablo 3'. You can guess what most people will say next.
Anyhoo, the real hole in your version of 'I hate the Witch Doctor' and most people's versions, is that we have a whopping 11 known Doctor skills. If you can tell me what the other skills are and tell me how you've played them, and why they're bad, maybe I'll agree with you. But right now, all you can say is, 'I dislike the Witch Doctor because IMO he's a big goofy dumbhead' or something along those lines.
LOL. I do take your points. It is true that I have no experience playing Diablo 3, nor am I fully aware of the complete skill lists for the witch doctor, AND I do think he's a big goofy dumbhead.
I WILL say that, at the VERY least then it's a total PR failure releasing the ability lists that they did. A simple comparison between the barbarian and wizard skill lists next to the witch doctor ones does tell me that one class is currently significantly less cool then the other two. Just go to the diablo mainpage and look through the ability videos they have in there. You've got a barbarian tearing the house down, a Wizard destroying everyone like they're her playtoys, and a Witch Doctor doing a trick and then running around waiting for things to die.
In my brief defence I will say that in my experience, most abilities like the witch doctor have result in how I've explained them. City of Heroes had Controller classes that fell to this exact same phenomenon. Players will simply go for power over control across the board leaving the one class that's trying to control things either being left frustrated or frustrating other people. If they can change that trend for diablo 3, congratulations, but a quick glance at any other game that's ever attempted it tells me that it's a steep uphill climb.
End of the day, I suppose it all comes down to taste. There probably is someone out there who's looking at the witch doctor and going "I must have you." I just hope they aren't too disappointed.|||Why does your inflated opinion deserve its own thread when there's already other threads that pertain to this topic?
You seem to have belittled the voodoo "curses", but anyone who has ever played a necro in a full game, any barbarian that has used: War Cry, Grim Ward, Howl, Taunt, or Battle Cry, any Werebear druid that has used Shockwave, and pretty much every trap assassin will tell you that the control aspect of the game is just as important to one's survival as power. One of the major focuses of combat for Diablo 3 will be a strategic approach across multiple skills, so a focus on control is inherent in the game.|||Quote:
You seem to have belittled the voodoo "curses", but anyone who has ever played a necro in a full game, any barbarian that has used: War Cry, Grim Ward, Howl, Taunt, or Battle Cry, any Werebear druid that has used Shockwave, and pretty much every trap assassin will tell you that the control aspect of the game is just as important to one's survival as power. One of the major focuses of combat for Diablo 3 will be a strategic approach across multiple skills, so a focus on control is inherent in the game.
I suppose the only thing that I can say to this is that you and I have clearly played different games. The game I've played is a game in which anyone who tries to control is simply left in the dust behind those who are dealing damage. If you've played a different game, and enjoyed it, then I congratulate you, but that has not been my experience.|||Quote:
I suppose the only thing that I can say to this is that you and I have clearly played different games. The game I've played is a game in which anyone who tries to control is simply left in the dust behind those who are dealing damage. If you've played a different game, and enjoyed it, then I congratulate you, but that has not been my experience.
Just because I haven't always played the min-maxer doesn't mean I've played a different game. Hell, I even gave you examples that refuted your claim that control is nothing. While control alone is weak, using it in a strategic manner with a decent attack is more benefitial than running headlong into a pack with left click held(in a balanced game).|||Mass confusion is similar to Assasin Mind Blast, while it look great in theory it is annoying in use as you need to wait for effect to were off but if you could attack confused foe it could overpowered skill as you could pick up enemy one by one, but everything can get work around, limit mass confusion to few targets and give doc ability to remove curses so he didn't need to wait.
Anyway i think that WD will get big remake and i wouldn't look as his skill as final.|||The reason why control skills wern't used alot in diablo 2 is.
1. lack of easy ways to switch between skills.
2. TP!! you ultimate life saver. far more affective to just tp out of a bad situation and then use the waypiont or someone elses tp back. or why not use teleport, a skill that they gave to everyone in the end, just because it was 2 powerful. "oh no, a tricky spot, lets just teleport away from it."
you have to increase death-penalty, nerf teleport and pimp up the controlskills.
Really hope runes will effekt those kind of skills so that they can be useful in all kinds of builds and situation. How about a horrify that makes all enemies in the area flee to a location of your choise, istead of just random. then your beloved wizard will totaly destroy the whole group in one single Blizzard. or a well placed firebomb if you like.
sorry for bad enlish.
|||Quote:1. From a flavor standpoint the Witch Doctor reminds me of the areas of Diablo 2 that I disliked the most. Act three was easily the location that they could have ripped out of Diablo 2 and I would have thanked them for it. The mobs were little and annoying, the zones were huge and maze like, and the waypoints were difficult to find. This all combined to make an experience that I can only define as "Frustrating." Having a class that comes directly out of this area immediately raises my hackles and prepares me for something that's going to be conceptually interesting but ultimately frustrating, which is sort of the theme I'm going with.
This isn't a terribly rational argument at all. You're basically stating you're approaching this from a biased viewpoint. Well, I'm not going to argue this at all because I can't persuade you to like act 3 in Diablo II. Don't respond to this point.
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2. The ability to have pets is neat. The ability to curse pets to do additional effects is neat. The ability to explode pets is neat. In theory. This will be the result of a player wanting to maximize his pets in combat. Summon Summon Summon, Curse Curse Curse, Explode Explode Explode, Repeat Ad Nauseum. Combine this with the fact that they've already stated that they don't want pets to be doing the majority of damage in combat, and you have a pet system which is simply frustrating to play with, although conceptually interesting.
I'm not sure I understand how this is a frustrating system. Pets could make good distractions, or be kamikaze summons. We don't know how runes or passives will affect these skills yet. Your argument seems to be you dislike the Witch Doctor's style of play, which is fine, just don't play the Witch Doctor. Or better yet play a different kind of Witch Doctor. I'm not sure if they included the spell enchantment damage in the 'pet damage' when they stated they didn't want them doing the majority of damage so I'm going to skip to the next point.
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3. FireBomb. This skill is actually kind of neat. My skeptisism goes off when I hear that this is the skill that defines the class. (As stated by the Diablo 3 Development Team.) The Barbarian has Seismic Slam, and the Wizard has Magic Missle, and those make perfect sense and define the class. When I hear "Magic Missle" I think, "Wizard or Sorcerer". When I hear "Seismic Slam" I think "Big Crazy Smashing Guy." When I hear "FireBomb" I do NOT think "Crazy Voodoo Witch Doctor." I think "Demolitionist" or "Alchemist". My mind does not immediately go to a character who is summoning pets and zombie walls, and other such voodoo like things.
The Witch Doctor comes off as a very 'alchemist' type character to me, so I can't say I agree completely. Also I don't think they meant the NAME of the skill represents the class, rather the skill in its entirety. I'm not sure what the argument is here anyways.
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I'm also highly skeptical of a level 18 diablo 2 sorceress skill, FireBall, being the defining skill of an entire class.
It's moreso a level 1 Assassin skill, but whatever. What does this even mean? You're skeptical of? That the skill won't be any good? That the class will be more like a sorceress than a 'crazy voodoo' guy?
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4. Horrify. This is one of those abilities that solo players will most likely use. It's one of those things that helps you get out of a sticky spot. HOWEVER, this is one of those abilities that drives people CRAZY in multiplay, ESPECIALLY the melee people. There's nothing worse than charging into melee combat just to have everything you're expecting to kill suddenly run away. Suddenly all the amassed mobs become little pissant targets you have to waste time running around picking off one by one.
Not ever skill needs to be geared towards multiplayer play. However, I don't think this skill is so antiparty because in tight situations it could be a lifesaver. Having a skill doesn't mean you need to spam it.
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Again, I'm highly skeptical of a level ONE barbarian skill that no one really used being one of the witch doctor skills.
Again, I'm not sure I understand your argument. Highly skeptical of what? That it won't be any good? Also this is Diablo III, not Diablo II, so although some skepticism is expected I get the impression you have more than enough.
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5. Locust Swarm. Again, another single player ability that will see no use whatsoever in multiplay. I remember when I decided to build a necromancer in diablo 2 specifically with the idea of poison nova in mind. The concept to me was tight. Use my pets to hold off advancing attackers, poison nova them and wait. The problem is that while I was waiting for things to die, other players were just killing things. The damage I was doing wasn't exceptional enough to warrent the build and the necromancer was abandoned.
Why will nobody use this in multiplayer? You assume it is like poison nova in Diablo II and suggest nobody will ever use this in multiplayer in Diablo III? Why? We don't know if poison has been reworked, what the poison critical is, what passives it has, what the runes do for it, etc... too much speculation to be overly-skeptical.
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This is one of those things that IS fixable. Just increase the damage to stay on par with everyone else. But I AM skeptical of a level 30 necromancer skill that's worse being a part of the witch doctor.
What? It's worse because it's part of the witchdoctor?
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6. Mass Confusion. Don't get me wrong. I love this ability in theory. The actual play of it though is annoying ultimately, and will see very little use in multiplay. The problem with it is that you basically double the time that players have to spend on a group of mobs. The first attack comes against the mobs who don't convert to your side, the second attack comes against the mobs who DID convert to your side, but then attack you when the spell wears off. Now, if they make it so that you can attack BOTH types of enemies, I immediately question the validity of the skill, because a barbarian or wizard will just lay waste to the entire group anyway.
They don't 'covert.' They become confused. You can still attack any of them. And your question due to the fact 'a barbarian or wizard will just lay waste to the entire group anyways' is pretty out there. What evidence do you have of this?
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It's a skill that just slows the game down for no REAL benefits, and it's sort of a throw back to a diablo 2 level 24 paladin skill, Conversion.
No, because it is AoE and you can still hit the targets.
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7. Wall of Zombies. This ability is actually full of flavor, but on a practical level is basically the Iron Maiden/Bone Wall combo from Diablo 2, in that it is a wall that deals damage to melee mobs. My problem with this is the same as the problem with Mass Confuse. It's just a slow way to deal damage when you have classes like the barbarian and the wizard charging forward into combat.
We have no idea how much damage this does. For all we know it is akin to firewall and will prove sufficient. This isn't 'bonewall with iron maiden' shoved into a cow level of Diablo II. For all we know crowd control is even more important in Diablo III. We've already seen several new AI mechanics that make each encounter differ. I'd rather throw up a zombiewall than have a group of those boarish creatures ramming into me.
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8. Soul Harvest. FINALLY an ability that isn't a TOTAL ripoff of an under used diablo 2 skill. While the comparisons to any type of nova are fair enough, allowing the nova to suck mana out of the people the witch doctor kills with it is pretty nice. Overall I'd say that this is probably the one ability that doesn't make me scratch my head and raise too many questions. My only skeptism is that it's an ability that seems to rely heavily on getting an opponent to low health FIRST and then using it, but that's an issue of timing more then anything. Ultimatly it'll be a skill that'll be nice to HAVE, but it'll hardly be the game winning device.
Nothing to really comment on here. And the witchdoctor should have no trouble getting opponents to low health with poison at work. :P|||Quote:
Conclusion.
I suppose through writing this I've convinced myself of one thing; The Witch Doctor is a conglomeration of totally under used, underpowered, and unwanted abilities from other games. While every other class has something new and facinating, the Witch Doctor is basically a class that is a bag of gimmicks, holding no actual substance. When I look at him I feel underwhelmed by his abilities, because I've SEEN all of his abilities before. Almost all of them are a take on a diablo 2 skill, and most of THOSE are skills that people hated in the first place.
But that's what makes him the most fun to play. He is the most diverse class in the game right now (even with melee/summon wizard) because he can do so much more than just DD.
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I can only see the witch doctor being the class that will be rife with experimentation and interest for those who are interested in exploring kooky and weird builds, but from an actual gameplay angle, I just picture him slowing gameplay down and forcing other players to accommodate his existence. While Barbarians and Wizards are charging headlong into combat, this guy is trailing behind doing all kinds of nifty parlour tricks, but never actually adding anything meaningful to combat, and when he does it usually ends up frustrating the actual damage dealers.
You look at things with too much of D2's prespective. Who's to say that in D3 you'll have 1 skill builds (damned be synergy) that you need to spam in order to kill faster. You underestimate the killing power of effective crowd control. Blocking escape routes of fearfull monsters with a zombie wall, turning archers on each other while you take out the closer enemies...
About FireBomb, it's remaned Skull of Flames. Maybe because a lot of people thought about the sorc's fireball spell, just like you. But it plays different in some ways. It's cast in an arch which gives it more utility power than a straight shootout. You can cast it from the top of the stairs on mobs that are on a lower platform. Therefore giving advantage to a higher ground, something that didn't exist in D2.
These are just some of my partial impressions from playing a very limited WD at Blizzcon.
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