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what's the real problem if one class killing quicker than the other
None. However don't go saying health globes are a solution to a balance problem when they aren't.
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The thing that worries me the most about the game at its current state is simply the sheer number of skills.
Looking at the few WD skills that are out you can already see some rehashes from D2 skills. With two more classes to be announced and the WD to be fleshed out the question is indeed how many skills will overlap. How many of those skills will be totally useless and really only used to flesh out a tree?|||The Witch Doctor's skills could really add some interesting depth to the game. Even skills under-utilized in DII could prove to be great strategical elements in DIII.
Unfortunately I don't see that happening, considering the way they've been toting "Action! Action! Action!" and the very visceral, in-your-face nature of the Barbarian, whose Fury mechanic thrives on the exact opposite of Crowd Controlling.|||Quote:
None. However don't go saying health globes are a solution to a balance problem when they aren't.
As Kaeros said, because of the way Fury works (this is on the assumption made due to the ), Barbs will be in the thick of it often if they intend on utilising their best skills. I can see Barbs diving in while WD takes care of stragglers or, in the case of control-focused ones, basically run the enemy into the "meat grinder".
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Looking at the few WD skills that are out you can already see some rehashes from D2 skills. With two more classes to be announced and the WD to be fleshed out the question is indeed how many skills will overlap. How many of those skills will be totally useless and really only used to flesh out a tree?
Indeed, and that's an aspect I had not previously looked at (overlapping skills). I'm not as worried about that as I am dead skills that "flesh out a tree" since most of the stun attacks (Stun, Smite, Mind Blast, Shockwave) and multi-strike attacks (Fend, Strafe, Zeal, Fury, DTail) were implemented without too much overlay. A bonus of such skill overlay is to experience such style with different backup strategies. That's not to say that I want to see such overlay, but I can at least see how or why it could be.
Another problem I find that somewhat coincides with the current 'problem' is the abundance of passives, but a solution (and maybe a necessity) is lower rank caps for said passives like in the demos (or possibly more than 1 skill point per level, but that is not the case at this time). For a well-rounded character, at good number of passives could/should be invested in. This naturally takes the skill focus away from the active skills if left unchecked.|||Barbs don't really need cc since with all their passives they are designed to stay in the middle and can take the hits. And I think it was Flux(?) that said the Wizard was the hardest to play at Blizzcon and the WD was easier since they could use the mongrels as shields.
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Well now that active skills are more than one rank, some of those passives will have to go. No need of Improved Spectral Blade, Improved Magic Missile, or Improved Charged Bolt. Putting points into the active skills themselves should do what these passives were already doing.|||@Telzen: I agree on all points, but I wonder if the dropped passives will be replaced by other passives or not at all. My hopes are on the latter.|||Telzen, the more than 1 rank per active skill (which I petition be shortened to +1PAS for brevity) was already known and planned for when the demo came out. So all those passives were intended to occur with +1PAS. Some may be removed or changed due to testing, but not because of +1PAS.|||That was my guess as well. If you want you can go all out and boost a passive and take advantage of the +1PAS. However a skill will most likely be useful with either +1PAS or a full passive.|||Oddly enough, I loved doing Act 3 in Diablo II, as long as I had someone else playing with me (although it's like that with most of the game for me anyways). I am quite excited for the Witch Doctor. Not so much for the Wizard, though, but the new Barbarian looks awesome.|||Hi. First of all, I want to say I am an old Diablo payer (since Diablo "1"). My favourites characters were NecroMancer and Druid. But I'm not against the Witch Doctor. I disagree a lot with the author of the post.
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1. From a flavor standpoint the Witch Doctor reminds me of the areas of Diablo 2 that I disliked the most. Act three was easily the location that they could have ripped out of Diablo 2 and I would have thanked them for it. The mobs were little and annoying, the zones were huge and maze like, and the waypoints were difficult to find. This all combined to make an experience that I can only define as "Frustrating." Having a class that comes directly out of this area immediately raises my hackles and prepares me for something that's going to be conceptually interesting but ultimately frustrating, which is sort of the theme I'm going with.
1. Honestly, I think there is no sense in the fact you hate the act3, and you hate the WD. If you hate, act3, ok. But it's a complete different theme. If this is the point number 1... the topic doesn't start well for you, in my own opinion.
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2. The ability to have pets is neat. The ability to curse pets to do additional effects is neat. The ability to explode pets is neat. In theory. This will be the result of a player wanting to maximize his pets in combat. Summon Summon Summon, Curse Curse Curse, Explode Explode Explode, Repeat Ad Nauseum. Combine this with the fact that they've already stated that they don't want pets to be doing the majority of damage in combat, and you have a pet system which is simply frustrating to play with, although conceptually interesting.
2. You don't have to summon + buff+ explode all the time. They can tank for you while you damage your opponents with your AoE spells. You also could explode them, but looks like it's mana expensive, and their base utility is to tank for you. By the way, I don't see as frustrating the explode thing. I just see the process awesome. You can summon without corpse, you can buff with poison or fire (completely new in D3), and you can explode. Completely awesome, both tactical and visually. Sorry but I don't feel any frustration here.
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3. FireBomb. This skill is actually kind of neat. My skeptisism goes off when I hear that this is the skill that defines the class. (As stated by the Diablo 3 Development Team.) The Barbarian has Seismic Slam, and the Wizard has Magic Missle, and those make perfect sense and define the class. When I hear "Magic Missle" I think, "Wizard or Sorcerer". When I hear "Seismic Slam" I think "Big Crazy Smashing Guy." When I hear "FireBomb" I do NOT think "Crazy Voodoo Witch Doctor." I think "Demolitionist" or "Alchemist". My mind does not immediately go to a character who is summoning pets and zombie walls, and other such voodoo like things.
3. Personally I see Firebomb ok. BTW, It's now named "Skull of Flame" (SoF). It's an awesome skill not because of the abse skill. It looks exactly like the assassni shuriken, but with better graphics. Looks boring.
BUT, you can insert runes inside the spell, and you get absolutely awesome skills, like bouncing with multistrike rune. Also, it looks like SoF could be thrown from different levels, or upstairs, or behind a wall.
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4. Horrify. This is one of those abilities that solo players will most likely use. It's one of those things that helps you get out of a sticky spot. HOWEVER, this is one of those abilities that drives people CRAZY in multiplay, ESPECIALLY the melee people. There's nothing worse than charging into melee combat just to have everything you're expecting to kill suddenly run away. Suddenly all the amassed mobs become little pissant targets you have to waste time running around picking off one by one.
Again, I'm highly skeptical of a level ONE barbarian skill that no one really used being one of the witch doctor skills.
4. Horrify is a nice spell, and I'm sure it will be helpful if the WD is not a plain-brain. A Barbarian near a WD could beneficit a LOT from horrify spell. Exactly like a werewolf could beneficit from the necro terror spell if he is sorrounded, or a melee assassin. It's not only a solo spell; it's too a nice cooperative spell, if the WD is intelligent. Like every skill in the game. I remember bone prison and bonewalls were a mess if a Necromancer player is stupid. But they are great cooperative spells (in hc for example) to bring protection to the party. Same with terror.
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5. Locust Swarm. Again, another single player ability that will see no use whatsoever in multiplay. I remember when I decided to build a necromancer in diablo 2 specifically with the idea of poison nova in mind. The concept to me was tight. Use my pets to hold off advancing attackers, poison nova them and wait. The problem is that while I was waiting for things to die, other players were just killing things. The damage I was doing wasn't exceptional enough to warrent the build and the necromancer was abandoned.
This is one of those things that IS fixable. Just increase the damage to stay on par with everyone else. But I AM skeptical of a level 30 necromancer skill that's worse being a part of the witch doctor.
5. You are judging a skill without knowing his effect in real game. Locust Swarm is not Poison nova. And poison nova, by the way, was a useful spell. Poison was a useful thing in D2, and it will be in D3.
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6. Mass Confusion. Don't get me wrong. I love this ability in theory. The actual play of it though is annoying ultimately, and will see very little use in multiplay. The problem with it is that you basically double the time that players have to spend on a group of mobs. The first attack comes against the mobs who don't convert to your side, the second attack comes against the mobs who DID convert to your side, but then attack you when the spell wears off. Now, if they make it so that you can attack BOTH types of enemies, I immediately question the validity of the skill, because a barbarian or wizard will just lay waste to the entire group anyway.
It's a skill that just slows the game down for no REAL benefits, and it's sort of a throw back to a diablo 2 level 24 paladin skill, Conversion.
6. Mass confusion is an excelent skill, it doesn't matter if a wizard kills faster or not. This is a curse for mass controling, and awesome one. One of the most underrated skills in diablo2 were Attract, Dim Vision and Confusion. The pity is that people got too powerful characters, and then they no need those skills. But were excellent skills and powerful enough to let you finish a game in hell mode with -100 all resistances in hc mode and without equip.
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7. Wall of Zombies. This ability is actually full of flavor, but on a practical level is basically the Iron Maiden/Bone Wall combo from Diablo 2, in that it is a wall that deals damage to melee mobs. My problem with this is the same as the problem with Mass Confuse. It's just a slow way to deal damage when you have classes like the barbarian and the wizard charging forward into combat.
7. Wall of Zombies looks awesome too. I got some concerns about the damage, but remember you can kill and kill with other spells while wall of zombies distract the monsters and let you stay safe.
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8. Soul Harvest. FINALLY an ability that isn't a TOTAL ripoff of an under used diablo 2 skill. While the comparisons to any type of nova are fair enough, allowing the nova to suck mana out of the people the witch doctor kills with it is pretty nice. Overall I'd say that this is probably the one ability that doesn't make me scratch my head and raise too many questions. My only skeptism is that it's an ability that seems to rely heavily on getting an opponent to low health FIRST and then using it, but that's an issue of timing more then anything. Ultimatly it'll be a skill that'll be nice to HAVE, but it'll hardly be the game winning device.
8. Finally, you got some reason here (not too much, but a bit IMO).
Soul Harvest looks like a powerful spell. My concerns here is in multiplayer. In solo, looks like the better skill to me. You can spread your spells and powers, damage the monsters with good DoT spells and just use Soul Harvest at the near end, killing the enemies ans replenish the mana completely it casted correctly on time. Then, spread again the new wave of enemies with your skills, or summon more mongrels, cast terror (the monsters will be damaged for your poison spells, enter again in AoE skills, receive more damage..., then terror again, and move on baby...) and finish again them with Soul Harvest, getting more mana back. Absolutely awesome for solo playing, IMO. As I said, my big concerns here is in multiplayer. If you cannot finish many monsters, you will lose mana in the process and Soul harvest won't be very useful. But we need to watch and play the final game to be sure about this one.
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Conclusion.
I suppose through writing this I've convinced myself of one thing; The Witch Doctor is a conglomeration of totally under used, underpowered, and unwanted abilities from other games. While every other class has something new and facinating, the Witch Doctor is basically a class that is a bag of gimmicks, holding no actual substance. When I look at him I feel underwhelmed by his abilities, because I've SEEN all of his abilities before. Almost all of them are a take on a diablo 2 skill, and most of THOSE are skills that people hated in the first place.
I can only see the witch doctor being the class that will be rife with experimentation and interest for those who are interested in exploring kooky and weird builds, but from an actual gameplay angle, I just picture him slowing gameplay down and forcing other players to accommodate his existence. While Barbarians and Wizards are charging headlong into combat, this guy is trailing behind doing all kinds of nifty parlour tricks, but never actually adding anything meaningful to combat, and when he does it usually ends up frustrating the actual damage dealers.
The Witch Doctor is literally the younger runtish cousin that you let play baseball with you and your friends because your mom told you to. You feel obligated to let him hang out with you, hell, you might even be happy to have him along because he's a funny guy who does weird things, but when it comes time to step up to the plate and swing at the ball, you'd rather have a dude who can hit the ball.
I think your conclusion is "a bit" nonsense. No bad intentions here; I just think this don't have any sense at all. Absolutely subjective. True this is a very very polite opinion (I'm glad to finally read something polite), but I think it got no sense.
Well, I think it's too soon to judge the WD. Every character in the game got old-remaked skills, and new skills too. And we don't know the remaining skills for the WD.
As Necromancer/Druid player, I'm a bit frustrated too, because no necromancer will come back. When I saw the barbarian, I thought how fantastic would be to have a Necromancer in Diablo3, with the new skills and effects, and graphics, also female Necromancer. When they said the Barbarian were the only who come back, I turned to happiness. But when I see the Wizard (a clear sorceress with another name and some new skills, but the same character), I felt a bit tricked by Blizzard.
But... it's all. It's a new game, this is Diablo3. We must forget diablo2, and think here comes a new game, Diablo3, with some old characters, some new characters. And there will be some which we like, and some which we don't like. In diablo 2, I "hate" amazons and assassins, and I loved druids and necromancers. In diablo3, I'm sure there will be the same: chars I willlike, and chars I won't like. I personally like the WD, I was druid/necro player, but I love the WD too. But if I wouldn't, there will be no problem. There are more chars for me and for my playstyle!
Finally, as a conclusion:
My conclusion:
I play a lot in hardcore mode. I also play alone, and untwinked. And sometimes with friends, too.
My favourite skills are:
Necro: Dim Vision, Attract, bone wall.
Druid: Shockwave
Barbarian: the cry that stuns, and the cry that causes terror.
Amazon: the "lure" miniamazon.
Assassin: mind blast.
Those skills, when well-used, are completely awesome. I don't see a guy finishing the game untwinked in hardcore mode without some of these amazing skills.
Of course, if a guy is a bit noob in Diablo, or a guy always plays with enigma-hoto-blablabla and rushed till act5 hell, and doing mf and baalruns, he doesn't know a **** about Diablo world, and he could subsist without any of these skills. He just knows Mighty Hammer, Blizzard, Summon Skeleton, Tornado and Lightning Traps, and the remaining skills are unknowed for him.
Elemental, Mr. Watson.|||Quote:
The two playstyles -- burst damage and slower, more manipulative crowd controlling -- seem completely at odds with eachother. How do you balance monster encounters without making Crowd Control either obsolete or necessary? Even a "middle-of-the-road" solution is bound to lean more in favor of burst damage opposed to slower, strategic options in fast-paced, group play. If one thing is true in this genre, people want the quickest line from point A to B when playing with others.
I think the easiest solution to this is variety in monster types. In D2, every monster was essentially the same, with the only differences being types/level of damage, health, and speed. They all had pretty much the same tactics from fight to fight, so burst damage and killing speed became king.
If (and I'm not saying they've succeeded at this yet) they are able to provide an equal number of situations that favor burst damage as there are situations that favor CC, then essentially each class has it's moments to shine and moments to struggle.
Quick possible example off the top of my head:
Barb and WD enter a room. The doors shut around them and two groups of enemies emerge from opposites sides of the room.
Monster group A is a large, plodding group of berserkers who are slow but do massive damage. The Barb sweeps in and takes them out, as he can survive the encounter long enough to stun and take them out. WD might not have the survivability to be in the thick of it.
Monster group B is a group of archers behind a barrier. Their arrows are doing a ton of damage from a distance so neither hero wants to get too close. The barrier is preventing projectile spells, making the Wizard less than ideal here, and the Barb is simply too slow and will take too much damage before he can leap over the barrier.
The WD on the other hand, has a variety of skills to help with this situation. Send mongrels in to draw the enemy fire, then either blow them up to remove the barrier, or leave them there for attention. Lob firebombs over the barrier and disrupt the archers, or summon one of those spider statues behind the barrier.
Each group presents a different challenge that requires different skillsets or tactics to destroy safely and efficiently.
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