This isn't a terribly rational argument at all. You're basically stating you're approaching this from a biased viewpoint. Well, I'm not going to argue this at all because I can't persuade you to like act 3 in Diablo II. Don't respond to this point.
All viewpoints are inherently Biased. I make no claim that my opinion is the end all be all of anything. I'm simply putting forth an opinion. If you disagree, wonderful.
Quote:
I'm not sure I understand how this (in regards to pets)is a frustrating system.
What I intended is that the repetition of constantly summoning, cursing, exploding the pets is what has the potential to be tedious. If it is not, wonderful, but every time this kind of system has been presented to a player base in any game, it always ends up being so.
Quote:
The Witch Doctor comes off as a very 'alchemist' type character to me, so I can't say I agree completely. Also I don't think they meant the NAME of the skill represents the class, rather the skill in its entirety. I'm not sure what the argument is here anyways.
You and I will have to agree to disagree on the flavor then. And, to be clear, the did not simply mean the name. They wanted an ability which captured the class entirely, not simply the name.
Quote:
It's moreso a level 1 Assassin skill, but whatever. What does this even mean? You're skeptical of? That the skill won't be any good? That the class will be more like a sorceress than a 'crazy voodoo' guy?
I'm skeptical that instead of making an entirely new ability, they are using an ability which is essentially a slight alteration from an existing standard.
Quote:
Not every skill needs to be geared towards multiplayer play.
I simply disagree entirely.
Quote:
Again, I'm not sure I understand your argument. Highly skeptical of what? That it won't be any good?
For the exact same reason above. Instead of making a new, interesting, ability they are using an old ability that no one liked. I make all of this fairly clear in my conclusion, which you chose to ignore for some reason.
Quote:
Why will nobody use this in multiplayer? You assume it is like poison nova in Diablo II and suggest nobody will ever use this in multiplayer in Diablo III? Why? We don't know if poison has been reworked, what the poison critical is, what passives it has, what the runes do for it, etc... too much speculation to be overly-skeptical.
I am constantly skeptical of poison damage in a game like this. I have never seen it be effective from Titan's Quest, GuildWars, Diablo 2, WoW, Ect. If they can manage it, wonderful. But my concern is that they will put poison in and everyone will simply step over it to go for burst damage.
Quote:
What? It's worse because it's part of the witchdoctor?
No, I'm skeptical because the witch doctor doesn't have any abilities that are cool to back up these kind of weak ones.
Quote:
They don't 'covert.' They become confused. You can still attack any of them. And your question due to the fact 'a barbarian or wizard will just lay waste to the entire group anyways' is pretty out there. What evidence do you have of this?
Every video I've seen, as well as any game that's ever attempted it as well, as well as simple concept. If they manage to make it useful, wonderful. No one else has ever done it.
Quote:
We have no idea how much damage this does. For all we know it is akin to firewall and will prove sufficient.
THIS right here is the heart of my concerns. If you ignore EVERYTHING else I've said, THIS is the heart of it right here. It's SUFFICIENT. It's not cool, it's not awesome, it doesn't lay waste, it doesn't strike fear, it doesn't make me go "Damn that's badass", it's simply sufficient. That's the witch doctor from start to finish. Everything about him is "sufficient". Nothing about him is cool.
Quote:
Nothing to really comment on here. And the witchdoctor should have no trouble getting opponents to low health with poison at work. :P
Unless there's anyone else in the game.
I appreciate healthy debate, I am a bit confused as to why you chose to ignore my conclusion, where I answered the vast majority of the questions you had.
End of the day, The Witch Doctor just isn't cool. He's a mish-mash of underwhelming abilities that everyone has already seen suck out in multiple other games. If Blizzard CAN make them work, and I truely am behind them if the can, great. They'll be the first ever to make these kind of controlling lackluster abilities look good in a game where people are generally rushing forward dealing massive amounts of damage.|||Quote:
Hello All,
While I understand that there's already a thread involving the hatred felt towards the Witch Doctor, I just wanted to take a moment to fully exhaust my concerns in a rational manner.
1. From a flavor standpoint the Witch Doctor reminds me of the areas of Diablo 2 that I disliked the most. Act three was easily the location that they could have ripped out of Diablo 2 and I would have thanked them for it. The mobs were little and annoying, the zones were huge and maze like, and the waypoints were difficult to find. This all combined to make an experience that I can only define as "Frustrating." Having a class that comes directly out of this area immediately raises my hackles and prepares me for something that's going to be conceptually interesting but ultimately frustrating, which is sort of the theme I'm going with.
Really, Act 3 wasn't hard at all. You just go and grab the guy's organs, transmute them, and boom you're at durance. I'm sorry if you can't handle a challenge or actually having to play through the game instead of just swiping the boss and running.
Quote:
2. The ability to have pets is neat. The ability to curse pets to do additional effects is neat. The ability to explode pets is neat. In theory. This will be the result of a player wanting to maximize his pets in combat. Summon Summon Summon, Curse Curse Curse, Explode Explode Explode, Repeat Ad Nauseum. Combine this with the fact that they've already stated that they don't want pets to be doing the majority of damage in combat, and you have a pet system which is simply frustrating to play with, although conceptually interesting.
Isn't every class repetitive though? On a barbarian it's going to be "attack attack attack", on a sorc it'll be "cast ___ cast ___ cast___". Let's face it, we all think of how stupid these people are to make such "boring" or "overused" classes, but I guarante every single class or character that anybody thinks up can be related to another existing character from somewhere.
Quote:
3. FireBomb. This skill is actually kind of neat. My skeptisism goes off when I hear that this is the skill that defines the class. (As stated by the Diablo 3 Development Team.) The Barbarian has Seismic Slam, and the Wizard has Magic Missle, and those make perfect sense and define the class. When I hear "Magic Missle" I think, "Wizard or Sorcerer". When I hear "Seismic Slam" I think "Big Crazy Smashing Guy." When I hear "FireBomb" I do NOT think "Crazy Voodoo Witch Doctor." I think "Demolitionist" or "Alchemist". My mind does not immediately go to a character who is summoning pets and zombie walls, and other such voodoo like things.
Where does it say that it "defines" the class? The WD has other spells too, it's not all about firebomb, as nor is it about the barb's seismac slam or the wizard's magic missile.
Quote:
I'm also highly skeptical of a level 18 diablo 2 sorceress skill, FireBall, being the defining skill of an entire class.
4. Horrify. This is one of those abilities that solo players will most likely use. It's one of those things that helps you get out of a sticky spot. HOWEVER, this is one of those abilities that drives people CRAZY in multiplay, ESPECIALLY the melee people. There's nothing worse than charging into melee combat just to have everything you're expecting to kill suddenly run away. Suddenly all the amassed mobs become little pissant targets you have to waste time running around picking off one by one.
Again, I'm highly skeptical of a level ONE barbarian skill that no one really used being one of the witch doctor skills.
Yea, when the Necromancer didn't cast life tap the melee people also cried. When the Paladin used redemption the Fishymancers cried because there were no corpses. When the Assassin used Cloak of Shadows to blind her enemies, the Sorceress cried because she couldn't round them up and mass meteor them. Guess what, things don't always fit perfectly.
Quote:
5. Locust Swarm. Again, another single player ability that will see no use whatsoever in multiplay. I remember when I decided to build a necromancer in diablo 2 specifically with the idea of poison nova in mind. The concept to me was tight. Use my pets to hold off advancing attackers, poison nova them and wait. The problem is that while I was waiting for things to die, other players were just killing things. The damage I was doing wasn't exceptional enough to warrent the build and the necromancer was abandoned.
This is one of those things that IS fixable. Just increase the damage to stay on par with everyone else. But I AM skeptical of a level 30 necromancer skill that's worse being a part of the witch doctor.
6. Mass Confusion. Don't get me wrong. I love this ability in theory. The actual play of it though is annoying ultimately, and will see very little use in multiplay. The problem with it is that you basically double the time that players have to spend on a group of mobs. The first attack comes against the mobs who don't convert to your side, the second attack comes against the mobs who DID convert to your side, but then attack you when the spell wears off. Now, if they make it so that you can attack BOTH types of enemies, I immediately question the validity of the skill, because a barbarian or wizard will just lay waste to the entire group anyway.
It's a skill that just slows the game down for no REAL benefits, and it's sort of a throw back to a diablo 2 level 24 paladin skill, Conversion.
That's funny, because Mind Blast is quite similar, and I used it very often to convert enemies so that I only fight half of the group and don't get killed right away. And, of course, you can just run by them. And who said that the barbarian and the wizard will be able to just completely destroy the group? What if they too need half of the group to not attack them just to survive?
Quote:
7. Wall of Zombies. This ability is actually full of flavor, but on a practical level is basically the Iron Maiden/Bone Wall combo from Diablo 2, in that it is a wall that deals damage to melee mobs. My problem with this is the same as the problem with Mass Confuse. It's just a slow way to deal damage when you have classes like the barbarian and the wizard charging forward into combat.
Again, who said that the wall has to be a slow killer? What if the barbarian and the Wizard are balanced so that the wall can kill equally well?
Quote:
8. Soul Harvest. FINALLY an ability that isn't a TOTAL ripoff of an under used diablo 2 skill. While the comparisons to any type of nova are fair enough, allowing the nova to suck mana out of the people the witch doctor kills with it is pretty nice. Overall I'd say that this is probably the one ability that doesn't make me scratch my head and raise too many questions. My only skeptism is that it's an ability that seems to rely heavily on getting an opponent to low health FIRST and then using it, but that's an issue of timing more then anything. Ultimatly it'll be a skill that'll be nice to HAVE, but it'll hardly be the game winning device.
I PvM, if there aren't many mana orbs or potions, then this could be essential to gain decent mana.
Quote:
Conclusion.
I suppose through writing this I've convinced myself of one thing; The Witch Doctor is a conglomeration of totally under used, underpowered, and unwanted abilities from other games. While every other class has something new and facinating, the Witch Doctor is basically a class that is a bag of gimmicks, holding no actual substance. When I look at him I feel underwhelmed by his abilities, because I've SEEN all of his abilities before. Almost all of them are a take on a diablo 2 skill, and most of THOSE are skills that people hated in the first place.
That's funny. Magic missile looks just like every other magical damaging blob on every caster. Disintigrate looks to me like inferno. Slow Time looks like Slow Missile on the Amazon.
Let's face it guys, every single thing is going to be able to be compared to another!
Quote:
I can only see the witch doctor being the class that will be rife with experimentation and interest for those who are interested in exploring kooky and weird builds, but from an actual gameplay angle, I just picture him slowing gameplay down and forcing other players to accommodate his existence. While Barbarians and Wizards are charging headlong into combat, this guy is trailing behind doing all kinds of nifty parlour tricks, but never actually adding anything meaningful to combat, and when he does it usually ends up frustrating the actual damage dealers.
The Witch Doctor is literally the younger runtish cousin that you let play baseball with you and your friends because your mom told you to. You feel obligated to let him hang out with you, hell, you might even be happy to have him along because he's a funny guy who does weird things, but when it comes time to step up to the plate and swing at the ball, you'd rather have a dude who can hit the ball.
Again, you just assume that the Barb and the Wizard are going to be overpowered. I don't see you making the game, so don't try to tell us how it's gonna end up.|||Quote:
But that's what makes him the most fun to play. He is the most diverse class in the game right now (even with melee/summon wizard) because he can do so much more than just DD.
This is a fair thing to say. My concern, of course, is that while he may have diversity and uniqueness he may be lacking in general utility. The simple truth of the basic philosophy is that if you have classes which are capable of dishing out lots of damage, which both the barbarian and the wizard seem capable of doing, they will leave a class which does not behind. There will be brief moments where a controller type will find themselves useful, but these moments will be the rare exception.
Quote:
You look at things with too much of D2's prespective. Who's to say that in D3 you'll have 1 skill builds (damned be synergy) that you need to spam in order to kill faster. You underestimate the killing power of effective crowd control. Blocking escape routes of fearfull monsters with a zombie wall, turning archers on each other while you take out the closer enemies...
I just need to take a look at the announced skill lists of the classes on the main site to see what's going to happen. The Wizard has 3 instant Direct Damage abilities, one quick escape ability, and one control ability, which we've never seen before and looks pretty badass. The Barbarian has four direct damaging abilities and one mass stun, which I find to be way more useful then any control the witch doctor actually has. The witch doctor has one direct damage ability, two control abilities which have the potential to be frustrating, or not useful, one damage over time ability, which has the potential to be overwhelmed by the DD of the other two classes, and Soul Harvest, which is a DD nova which is useful if everything has 1 hp.
Without even THINKING about diablo two, I look at that and it raises alot of questions. I just have such a clear picture of a barbarian and wizard walking around laying waste to everything around them with whirlwinds, seismic slams, electrocutes, and magic missles while the witch doctor tries to help by horrifying and mass confusing everything but they die anyway. If this ISN'T the case, wonderful, but the potential for it to be this way is high, and we've seen it happen before in more games then simply diablo 2.
Quote:
About FireBomb, it's remaned Skull of Flames. Maybe because a lot of people thought about the sorc's fireball spell, just like you. But it plays different in some ways. It's cast in an arch which gives it more utility power than a straight shootout. You can cast it from the top of the stairs on mobs that are on a lower platform. Therefore giving advantage to a higher ground, something that didn't exist in D2.
These are just some of my partial impressions from playing a very limited WD at Blizzcon.
Renaming it Skull of Flames is a good idea. They really do need to convince people that this isn't just a fireball.|||Quote:
I'm sorry if you can't handle a challenge...
/Opens Mouth to Say Something.
/Decides that it would be wasted breath.
/Moves on.|||Quote:
All viewpoints are inherently Biased. I make no claim that my opinion is the end all be all of anything. I'm simply putting forth an opinion. If you disagree, wonderful.
I don't really want to get into a philosophical debate about bias, but I thought it was obvious what I meant. If not then I'll try to clarify here. I am not suggesting you think your opinion is the end all and be all of anything, so there wasn't much reason to bring that up. I was commenting on the fact you started by saying you want to list rational reasons and then your first point is arguably something irrational (again trying to step around philosophical debate). Although I explicitly said not to reply to that, because I didn't want to talk about this because it really adds nothing to the thread so I will not reply to any future comments referencing this point.
Quote:
What I intended is that the repetition of constantly summoning, cursing, exploding the pets is what has the potential to be tedious. If it is not, wonderful, but every time this kind of system has been presented to a player base in any game, it always ends up being so.
It has the potential to be tedious only if you choose to play it that way. Nobody said you had to play the Witch Doctor exactly in that manner. If you find it tedious, don't do it. You could go for an all-out spellcasting WD with no pets if you wanted.
Quote:
You and I will have to agree to disagree on the flavor then. And, to be clear, the did not simply mean the name. They wanted an ability which captured the class entirely, not simply the name.
I think you misunderstood what I wrote.
Quote:
I'm skeptical that instead of making an entirely new ability, they are using an ability which is essentially a slight alteration from an existing standard.
Skeptical that it might not be fun? Bring anything new? What? I personally don't have any problems mixing in the old with the new.
Quote:
I simply disagree entirely.
Ok.
Quote:
For the exact same reason above. Instead of making a new, interesting, ability they are using an old ability that no one liked. I make all of this fairly clear in my conclusion, which you chose to ignore for some reason.
Nobody 'liked' it because it had very little tactical application in the setting of Diablo II, however that doesn't mean it won't in Diablo III. I didn't ignore your conclusion, I just didn't respond to it because I thought I covered what I wanted to.
Quote:
I am constantly skeptical of poison damage in a game like this. I have never seen it be effective from Titan's Quest, GuildWars, Diablo 2, WoW, Ect. If they can manage it, wonderful. But my concern is that they will put poison in and everyone will simply step over it to go for burst damage.
Not much to comment on because nobody knows.
Quote:
No, I'm skeptical because the witch doctor doesn't have any abilities that are cool to back up these kind of weak ones.
In the demo the WD only had 11 skills so it's too early for me to comment on this. I think his abilities are cool, though.
Quote:
Every video I've seen, as well as any game that's ever attempted it as well, as well as simple concept. If they manage to make it useful, wonderful. No one else has ever done it.
Ok.
Quote:
THIS right here is the heart of my concerns. If you ignore EVERYTHING else I've said, THIS is the heart of it right here. It's SUFFICIENT. It's not cool, it's not awesome, it doesn't lay waste, it doesn't strike fear, it doesn't make me go "Damn that's badass", it's simply sufficient. That's the witch doctor from start to finish. Everything about him is "sufficient". Nothing about him is cool.
I think some of his abilities are 'cool,' 'awesome,' and do make me go 'Damn that's badass.' Understandably not everyone is going to feel this way so there's little point going back and fourth over it. He seems like a very cool character to me.
Quote:
Unless there's anyone else in the game.
I disagree. Just because there are other people in the game doesn't mean everything is annihilated instantly.
Quote:
I appreciate healthy debate, I am a bit confused as to why you chose to ignore my conclusion, where I answered the vast majority of the questions you had.
I didn't ignore your conclusion, I disagreed with it.|||I don't feel like making long posts like the rest of you lol. I'll just say this. The major problem with the op's post is that he assumes all skills need to be useful in multiplayer. But the game is firstly a singleplayer game and they are making each class so that it can survive on its own. That renders most of your arguments moot.|||Like Telzen, I'm not gonna quote and argue every bit. I'll just go a little at a time.
Before I get into it, fights in Diablo 3 are going to be longer and more involved than Diablo 2, so skills besides burst damage become more important, so the WD will probably be just as effective as the rest. You assume he won't so because in Diablo 2 monsters died in one or two hits, and Witch Doctor has slower hits than the others.
Jonolith, I know hating act 3 is your opinion but it's not really something you can use for your argument.
Yeah, Skull of Flames is the new name.
You are mistaken about both control spells. They're meant to keep monsters of your back AND off the backs of your party members. A watch of the gameplay video will show that confused monsters can be attacked like regular monsters. Hell, you could say confusion does damage because the monsters are attacking each other, taking damage. In fights, monsters won't die in one or two hits, so it's important to not have them be hitting you back while you pick them off. As for Horrify, the only time we've seen it used is on the scavengers, which are tiny and FAST. If you used it on, say, skeletons, they won't get as far so chasing will be minimal. Plus they come back, because the point of the skill is to remove them from combat for a little while.
Locust swarm looks pretty effective. You saw how it ripped through the zombies, and it killed a skeletal summoner in 1 shot. I guess the point of it is that it spreads, so all the damage is soaked up by monsters. Here's an example: let's say If you shoot a skull of flame at a monster with 20 hp, it will do 10 damage. Then you use Locust Swarm (locust breath). If each locust swarm does 40 damage, then the monster will take 20 and the monster next to it will take 20. Or if it's a monster with 100hp, it will take 40. I'm trying to say that all of the damage gets done, so it's just as effective as the other skills. Also, I think they changed poison. Poison itself is just an element. It doesn't automatically do damage over time. Critical hits from enchanted weapons poison the monster, and skills like Locust swarm do Poison DoT.
As for pets, summoning looks fast. Jay Wilson had said that the mongrels are used as Crowd Control as well as damage, since monsters will be attacking them. The Mongrels be running right up to the enemies to bit, so if you use Skull of Flame or Locust Swarm on the enemy you're likely to enchant your pets as well. Also, you don't have to detonate if you think it's bothersome. Although it seems like it would take as much time as any other spell.
Wall of zombies is to keep monsters away while also doing damage. Like I keep saying, keeping monsters from attacking you is going to be just as important as attacking them in Diablo 3 because they last longer and are more of a threat.
I'm pretty sure soul harvest gives mana at any time, not just when killing an enemy. Also, judging from the Blizzcon B-roll video it's spammable. A way to do quick, cheap damage to monsters before running to a better position.|||Quote:
Like Telzen, I'm not gonna quote and argue every bit. I'll just go a little at a time.
I think I'm too the point where I'm going to simply have to say "We'll see." My spidy sence tells me that these abilities are going to fall to the wayside, as they always have. If they don't, wonderful. That probably means that the developers had long drawn out conversations about these abilities, much like we are having here.
Until then, I remain completely skeptical simply because every time these types of abilities are introduced into a game people think "There's a neat dynamic to add to the game." and it always disappoints. Again, if it doesn't here, wonderful.
Quote:
Before I get into it, fights in Diablo 3 are going to be longer and more involved than Diablo 2, so skills besides burst damage become more important, so the WD will probably be just as effective as the rest. You assume he won't so because in Diablo 2 monsters died in one or two hits, and Witch Doctor has slower hits than the others.
This point actually got me thinking about some of the boss fight videos we've seen around. There's no arguing that those are going to be pretty dynamic encounters against a mob that represents a significant threat. The Witch Doctor WOULD be fairly useful here, as burst damage ceases to be the representative form of damage, and sustained damage becomes more neccessary. This is probably where the witch doctor'll get to shine the brightest, at the end of the day. I still hold onto the idea that he'll be less useful outside of that, but inside of these types of encounters, he could be a boon.
Quote:
Jonolith, I know hating act 3 is your opinion but it's not really something you can use for your argument.
But I hated it SO MUCH!
|||Okay, you hate the WD. Here's a simple sollution: Don't play as a WD, there will be four more classes (which you obviously believe will be much more versatile and usefull).Ultimately it's all about what you wanna get from the game, if your goal is to "wtfbbqpwn" everything, then you should do that and leave the (so-called) lame and underpowered WD alone.|||Lol My Oppion the witchdoctors pets can be the mobs playtoys while i wirlwind me way threw
No comments:
Post a Comment